Competing for Elon Musk's X Prize with Whale Poop 💩

This week we meet Edwina Tanner and Jill Storey of Whale X, an Australian company competing for Elon Musk’s X Prize, a multi-year competition resulting in the awarding of $100M to the best carbon removal project. 

Whale X’s solution? Fertilize the ocean with synthetic whale poop. Before you write that off as silly, know that they are currently in 60th place out of 1,000 applicants. And frankly, who better than Elon Musk to support a seemingly outrageous idea.

Some topics covered in this podcast:

• Diminishing whale population and implications for ocean health
• The mechanics of Carbon Sequestration and why the ocean is optimal 
• Backstory on research from Ocean Nourishment Corporation, Whale X’s mother organization
• The role of whales in the carbon cycle and marine ecosystem in general
• How Whale X would be rolled out
• What they need to get it off the ground
• Elon Musk's X Prize

Transcript

INTRO:

HOST VO: Welcome to the podcast today where we celebrate Innovation for a Happy Planet. I am your host Abigail Carroll. 

Today we are going to speak with Jill Storey and Edwina Tanner, of WhaleX Strategy, a spin off of the Australian research organization, The Ocean Nourishment Corporation. Jill is in charge of Innovation, Strategy and Carbon Finance and and Edwina serves as Project Manager.

Not unlike some of the companies we’ve spoken to already on the podcast, Whale X is in the business of biomimicry but with a new twist. They aren’t emulating the animal, but rather its excrement! They are developing synthetic whale excrement to suck carbon out of the atmosphere. If you think making poop sounds silly, take note that they are competing for Elon Musk’s 100M$ Carbon Removal X Prize and are currently ranked in the top 60 contenders out of more than 1,000 applicants!

Abigail (00:00):

I am here with Jill's story and Edwina Tanner, uh, who are here from down under, uh, it's morning there, right?

Jill (00:10):

That's right, Abigail. Yes, it is <laugh>.

Abigail (00:14):

Well, thank you. Thank you for coming. I'm so excited to be talking to you about your, your project. Um, uh, so what is Whale X? What are you up to down there?

Jill (00:27):

Well, it's really exciting. Um, Edwina and I are part of the Ocean Nourishment Corporation, uh, which is an Australian, um, corporation that was set up in 2004. And, um, we've been working on a Whale X project for the last 12 months, um, as part of, um, Elon Musk's Carbon Prize. Um, so what we've been looking at is, um, as you'll know, there used to be around four to 5 million whales in the ocean. Um, now we're down to about 1.3 million whales in the ocean. So what's missing is a lot of whale poo, a lot of whale excretion. Um, and the importance about that is, um, the nutrients that whale poo is, um, adding to the, um, ecosystem, which is helping, um, grow phytoplanktin, which, um, have the dual purpose of sequestering carbon and also providing food for, um, fish stocks. So, um, we've been working on this project for the last 12 months. Um, Edwina will give you a bit more of the scientific detail, but it's, um, it's been really exciting in terms of, um, putting everything together and just seeing how we can, what we can do to, um, help restore the ecosystem.

Abigail (01:41):

Wow, that's amazing. One, uh, it's a terrible, terrible tragedy to hear that the number of whales is diminishing so quickly and so seriously in, and actually Maine where I am, we're having an issue with Right whales and it's become a huge polemic between the lobstermen and the, um, and the environmentalists who wanna protect a whale. There's, you know, 70 left or something like that  So, um, so in my part of the world, we're very familiar with the diminishing whale population, but not everybody knows about this whale excrement situation. Um, how did you guys, um, how did you guys kind of hone in on that?

Edwina (03:30):

So one of the, one of the old fish's tails was that we, you know, we have to kill the whales because they're our fish, but actually what they found out that when you put more whales in the population, that you actually grow the bottom of the, the food chain and grow the fisheries. 

Edwina (02:29):

Um, I, I guess I could answer that. Um, we've looked at this ocean nourishment problem for about, um, 20 years as we've done experiments and, uh, uh, bottle experiments and, and come up with a formula for the  ocean, um, where there's limiting nutrients. And what we actually looked at was that, uh, whale excretion had very similar constituents to this formula that we'd come up with with nitrogen, phosphorous, iron. Um, and so we thought, oh, hang on, uh, whale are actually naturally fertilizing the ocean they have been for millions of years. Um, and so we could probably take a lesson in how they're doing it because there's never really been, um, a reported, uh, algal bloom or outbreak, uh, from whales, uh, populations that we know of. But what what tends to happen is they build up the bottom of the ecosystem by, um, e e excreting their, their nutrients where they, where they feed.

Edwina (03:30):

So one of the, one of the old fish's tails was that we, you know, we have to kill the whales because they're our fish, but actually what they found out that when you put more whales in the population, that you actually grow the bottom of the, the food chain and grow the fisheries. (So this, this whale poo and excrement, so it's the, the, the feces and the urine, um, are, are creating very large nutrient patches in the ocean that are required by phyto planktin to grow. And the, so we, we kind of put these two or two together and, um, when we looked at our aqua food formula that we sort of came up with to put in the ocean and analyze whale poo, we, we, we saw that they're very similar <laugh>. So, so, so we made this link and then looking deeper into the whole, um, whale pump and what whales do to in the environment, uh, you know, we, we've started taking lessons from this. So it's kind of all started there at the, at the bottom of the food chain <laugh>.

Abigail (04:26):

Yeah. That, that's amazing. Okay. I want, I have a million questions, but I wanna back up for listeners because this carbon sequestration thing is, is like increasingly coming up in these podcasts and we're gonna be hearing a lot about it in the future. Can you, can you back up and explain a little bit about this whole carbon cycle and how we sequester just, just the ABCs of carbon sequestration and what this all means?

Edwina (04:57):

Okay, so carbon sequestration is the long term storage of carbon. Now, the reason we want to store carbon and draw it out of the atmosphere is cuz we continually pumping, uh, megatons of extra carbon into the atmosphere, but through burning fossil fuels. So now what we've come to a problem where we now have a 400 and over 450 part per million concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. And this is measured. Um, so this is a fact. And what we need to do is actually bring that level down. So this is causing the warming of the atmosphere, uh, so the, the, and the global climate changes that we're seeing. So this, so what we want to do, the sequestration ideas to draw the carbon out of the atmosphere there and store it into either the oceans or the earth or plants or material. So where it's sequestered, sequestering means it's, it's stored for long periods of time.

Edwina (05:54):

And the reason we've chosen the ocean is because the, the ocean is 70% of the planet and we, we are looking at how, uh, a really fast response time with phyto planktin, phyto plantin grow in three to five days, whereas it takes hundreds of years to grow trees <laugh> and, you know, hundreds of years to grow a whale. So looking at a phyto plankton response, it can draw down CO2 on the surface of the ocean that's 70% of the planet, um, in a very short period of time. It then sinks to the bottom of the ocean. So the part that is sequestered is a bit that actually sinks to the bottom of the ocean, like marine snow falls down continuously, like marine snow. So it's a little light touch phyto planton fall down and end up in the bottom of the ocean and form our marine sediments and are, are stored once they go under this, uh, sunlit layer, uh, this thermocline layer for, you know, hundreds of years.

Abigail (06:48):

Wow. Um, and so when you started with the, um, ocean nourishment, nourishment project, you were just trying to figure out how to feed the ocean in a way that was going to provoke, uh, the flourishing of these little phytoplankton. Is that correct?

Edwina (07:11):

Exactly right. That was the whole concept of ocean nourishment or sometimes as it's referred to as ocean fertilization. And the idea is just, uh, the productivity of the ocean has fallen over the, the past few decades. And this productivity, which is the phyto plant, um, has decreased. And so the, the way to kind of, uh, you know, reboot or stimulate growth you is, is to actually find these, the missing nutrients in the ocean. If you look at a ocean surface in some areas it's missing nitrogen, in some areas it's missing iron, in some areas it's missing phosphorus of silicate. So if you add these kind of, you know, nutrient bullets into those areas of the ocean, it stimulates the phyto planting growth. And, and you can see the response really quite quickly. Um, if you have in a natural system, if you have a bushfire and the ash or, or it falls onto the water.

Edwina (08:02):

We had this, uh, uh, southern Australia, uh, last year and that ash has iron in it and, and stimulates the biological productivity. This also happens in upwelling areas where nutrients are upwell from the depth, and these are some of the most productive fisheries, um, on the global planet because they have these additional nutrients. So this is the concept of ocean nourishment, is that there's ocean deserts out there that are lacking the essential, uh, nutrients, uh, for phyto plant to grow, that the light conditions are good, the, um, uh, the growing conditions are good, but what they're lacking is the nutrients to actually, um, create that growth. And that is a lot to do with, uh, you know, this nutrient cri conveyor belt of, of whales.

Abigail (08:49):

So interesting. Now I have a like sort of a, a question because I, you know, I had this 10 years as an oyster farmer and we were always very concerned about some of these, um, nitr nitrogen and things coming into our shallow waters on the coastal waters and creating dead zones because you'd have too many blooms of phytoplankton. Why is it different in the areas you are looking at? Why do you wanna create these blooms? Whereas in our areas we were very concerned about the potential for over, um, you know, too big a bloom.

Edwina (09:28):

Yeah, well this, this is happening in coastal regions, um, around the world, these algal harmful algal blooms they're called, and this is because of way too many nutrients in a small area and, and that does create harmful conditions for growth. But what we're looking at is the very wide ocean and a very light touch and actually bringing up concentrations of phytoplanktin to who, you know, just by 1%, not by, you know, these hundreds of percents that is happening in the coastal zone. So it's a, it's a very light touch and um, yes, this is, this is a problem that people do see coastal zones having, um, you know, massive algal blooms and um, you know, seaweed growing out of control macroalgae and, and causing real problems. Uh, but this is not what happens in the open ocean. And, and this is what whales have shown us that they let out 200 liters of, uh, you know, rich nutrient Yeah, rich nutrient plumes, um, you know, for each poo and 600 liters of urea in per wee in these, in these great whales. And this is being let out constantly and you get a pot of these whales together and that's a lot of nutrients in one place. But these do not cause and they're shown not to cause harmful algal bloom. They actually are, you know, it's like putting the right amount of fertilizer into a place and not over fertilizing. Yeah, yeah. Right. So that's,

Abigail (10:49):

And we're talking about the blue waters too. We're talking much deeper waters not in the coastal regions. So it's a different, different ecosystem.

Edwina (10:57):

Yes. We're looking at, uh, waters with, uh, about a thousand meters depth. So that's what we're, we're aiming for.

Abigail (11:04):

Okay. A thousand meters depth. Okay. So, um, one more technical question following up on what you just told me about the, um, the, uh, whales relieving themselves in the ocean. How often do they do this?

Edwina (11:19):

Yeah, well pretty much, um, daily, you know, we we're all quite regular, so depending on

Abigail (11:24):

After the coffee.

Edwina (11:25):

Yeah. So if they're in a feeding, uh, zone, but, but they do migrate to a breeding zone where they don't eat and they, they do, um, uh, they don't excrete quite as much, put it that way when they're Okay. So yeah. But when they're in their feeding areas and, uh, eating all that crill and phyto plankton, they are excreting every day. Yes. <laugh> quite regular.

Abigail (11:49):

So how did you go about discovering that, you know, you had this, you had created this formula in the lab and you thought, oh, this, these, this is exactly what we probably need to fertilize the ocean with. What, how did you pinpoint the whale? How did you discover that the whale had this sort of chemical composition?

Edwina (12:09):

Uh, I think it's actually just a research and I came across a, a seminal paper by Joe Roman, uh, 2014, um, and 2010 actually in fact, he did his initial research and he looked at whales, um, in a Bay area and he discovered that the whales actually, um, generated this a, a greater nutrient cycle than all of the river input together. So this is sort of piquing our interest going, oh, okay, well they're putting a lot of nutrients in. And then I think there's just been a lot more research and, um, understanding about the contributions whale have to, to climate. Um, over the past 10, 20 years, this is really quite new research. And so when we started reading about what whales do, cause I have worked on a number of while projects and actually looking, I, I think the, this, the moment was watching a whale poo.

Edwina (12:58):

And when you actually see it excrete into the ocean and what happens is that the nutrients are in the surface layer, in the sunlight layer, and they stay there, they're quite buoyant. So we had to go back to our formula and make it a little bit more buoyant cuz we were ex, you know, injecting it at mid mixed layer depth and went, oh, hang on, we probably need to put this into the surface layer. And so I think it's just, just looking and learning. Um, and this research has now grown together. I think they've kind of been growing side by side over the last 10 years, um, looking at what whales do and what we're doing, and

Abigail (13:31):

It's really exciting that this whole I, you know, sort of, we're talking a lot about biomimicry these days, and it just looks like we thought we were gonna learn everything in a lab in this sort of, between these white walls. And then all of a sudden it seems like we're looking back at nature and saying, oh wait, this, you know, this is set up in a really smart way, you know, maybe it needs a little push here or there, but, um, but, but the, the, you know, this is what we should be doing.

Edwina (14:02):

Well, we else have perfected this technique over 40 million years they've been doing this in the ocean, [right] So, so we've only been looking at, like I said, the last 20 years <laugh>. So really I think, um, you know, scientists really need to take a step back and look at nature and say, how has it been? You know, how has it been thriving before we came along <laugh>? And, and how can we then bring it back up to those, um, those levels using, using those examples?

Abigail (14:28):

Are there any other, I mean, you mentioned that it would, you know, it feeds fish and, um, and it, uh, poten it sequesters carbon. Are there any other benefits from these whale excretions?

Edwina (14:41):

Uh, there? Well, there are, and that's, uh, looking at the ocean acidification problem. So it does, uh, relieve the surface ocean acidification in the short term as well. Well, so you have these three large global issues, which is food security, uh, carbon dioxide pollution, and ocean acidification that this, this, uh, solution has, can, can help ameliorate. So, um, yes, all three of those, but, but you have to do it in the right way, in the right places and, and get the science, the underlying science. Right. 

Abigail (15:15):

Yeah. Was there anything really surprising that you learned about whales along the way while you're doing all this research?

Edwina (15:22):

I think I've learned so many things about whales that is surprising. Um, <laugh>, uh, you know, looking at the, the whale pump, which is how wells, uh, feed down below and then come up and excrete at the surface, and just how this important, this is important to the food cycle in the ocean. It, it's really the base of the food chain and how we grow every single living thing on the planet, you know, stems from this. It also produces half the oxygen. The, the phytoplanktin produce half the oxygen we breathe, [right]. So every second breath is, um, you know, produced by phytoplankton. Uh, the other thing is that the huge journeys the whales take, so their migration, they, you know, they go from the poles up to the tropics and they give both up in the tropics. And, and what I really didn't know was along the way they teach they're young, how to navigate these paths between, you know, that, that, uh, uh, the cold waters and the warm waters, and come into bays and show them, you know, this is a landmark and you know, you're passing Sydney harbor or wherever they're going.

Edwina (16:23):

And, and they really do, they're really, um, curious creatures. They also respond to sound to humans, and they're very empathetic. And, and I think one of the, um, you know, really beautiful thing is to see a, a mother with her calf and whales, and you can see that there is a, a beautiful bond between these animals. They're, they're, they're very humanlike in that respect, or yeah, <laugh>. So those are, those are all things, yeah. Getting to understand the animal.

Abigail (16:53):

And they certainly seem to be doing a lot for humans, and we haven't always been aware of that. So thank you for that. Um, are there other types of like excrement, like could we use other, I mean, excrement seems like, if we could put that to good use. I mean, could we, I mean, does human have some of these qualities? Do, do, does dolphin excrement, I mean, are there other resources that we may not be as, you know, plural? You know, there may not be as much, um, but uh, are there other sources that would resemble this chemical composition?

Edwina (17:31):

Yeah, well, of course, um, if you look at coral reefs, although reef fish, um, you know, you have very clean waters there, but the, the reefs are kept alive pretty much by the, the fish poo <laugh>, you know, that they [amazing] recycle the nutrients, you know, if they clean it up and then, uh, poo it back out and recycle it. And, and every animal, even the, there's, you know, zoo plankton that a lot of the sequestration happens from, uh, you know, conglomerates of phytoplanton are eaten by the zoo, plankton are eaten by the fish, and each one poos and each one of their feces are, you know, sequestered somewhat, um, as the, as they get larger or sequestered down in the bottom of the ocean. So yes, it's a, it's a whole cycle. And, you know, taking out one of these, uh, levels is, is really, uh, devastating to this, this whole cycle.

Abigail (18:18):

The poo chain,

Edwina (18:19):

The Poo chain <laugh>,

Abigail (18:21):

We have the food chain and the poo chain <laugh>.Um, yeah. So, okay. So you're making all of this, this, this synthetic whale poo this is happening offshore, presumably?

Edwina (18:34):

Uh, we make it onshore, and then we take it at the moment, the idea is to have, um, you know, for our whale X project, the, the concept is to set up a station that's offshore that we, um, you know, use renewable energy to Yeah. Uh, pull nitrogen from the atmosphere. You know, these are all things that are going to happen at the moment, we create the, um, uh, aqua food, the on land, and, and then we take it out and containers and, uh, disperse it. So we did do one experiment for our, uh, first stage of the X prize where we set out, um, you know, 300 liters of this AquaPoo to look at how it responded in the water, and h uh, uh, yeah, it was, it was quite exciting. So, but we have our next stage, which is a kiloton experiment that we need to do for, um, the stage two of prize that

Abigail (19:24):

The problem. Okay. We're gonna get to that, um, in just a sec. Um, so you've, you've already sort of done some implementation. Have you been a, been able to make some observations on the, you know, the process and the, the, you know, the response?

Edwina (19:43):

Uh, well, this is the challenge. So we've,

Abigail (19:45):

Okay.

Edwina (19:45):

We've looked at the process and we've got a lot of model experiments and theory and modeling Okay. And satellite measurements and, um, in situ measurements. But, but the real challenge is actually measuring the sequestration, if you can imagine. Yeah. You, you're trying to measure a very light response and, and look at, uh, how you've increased the marine snow level <laugh> to fall down to a thousand meters depth. So this is actually a, a question that's being tackled internationally, um, by, uh, large groups of scientists. Yeah. Which is really nice. And which, uh, the XPRIZE and Ocean Visions have been getting together, um, through discussion forums. And so this is, this is really important. How do we measure this? How do we, how do we monitor this? Um, you know, we can, we can look at the response, uh, through satellites and in situ measurements, but how do we actually look at what is sinking to the bottom and how the ecosystem responds. So the, these are the questions we're tackling right at this moment

Abigail (25:28):

So do you have ocean monitors that can help you measure the response and or, and how do you We, we just, this week's episode on the podcast is a woman who started the first plastic car plastic credit exchange. And we, she was saying, oh, I've got a much easier job because measuring plastic that you've removed from the beach is so tangible, but it's very hard. It's a much harder thing figuring out how you re, you know, how much carbon you remove from the air. So how do you, how do you go about that? 

Edwina (26:02):

Well, we are, we're looking at building a robot whale, um, you know, so we have these autonomous underwater vehicles, <laugh> that are in the ocean, and they measure all the biochemical processes. And the idea of the robot well is it would have some eyes as well. And eyes are important because they can actually see and measure the, the velocity or the acceleration of particles going down in the ocean. And that's the size and acceleration. So that's important because there is a, you know, stokes law relationship between the size of the particle and the acceleration as to what is going to end up in the bottom of the ocean, what's going to be remineralized and, and those sorts of things. So you need to monitor all of these aspects. So you need to, you need to have, you know, know eyes and, um, sensors in the ocean following the patch, but also on the bottom, so sediment traps are this other method.

Edwina (26:53):

And so one thing we've been doing, um, you know, through to, to, to learn a lot about our planet is taking core samples from, um, you know, Antarctica or the bottom of the ocean. And by taking core samples, you can actually calculate how much sediment has fallen in that place in the ocean over numbers of years. You can, you know, do a time series kind of accumulation of carbon, um, by, by analyzing sediment cores. So we know this happens, the science is there, um, the theories are all there, the modeling's there, but it's actually doing the measurements, which is what we have to do for xprize. The MVR measurement reporting and verification has to be done, um, intimately, you know, on your project. So this is, this is the big challenge.

VO: We’ll hear a lot more about the X Prize after a short break. 

BREAK: MTI + SPARK NO 9

VO: We’re back with Happy Planet. In the second half of the podcast we’re going to hear a lot more about the XPRIZE a $100 Million competition funded by Elon Musk and the Musk Foundation that focuses on carbon sequestration. We will also hear about a group called Ocean Visions which is a non-profit working to stabilize the climate and restore ocean health by fostering collaboration and  creating a common roadmap to climate and ocean health.

Abigail (20:40):

It's amazing. Yeah. So it sounds like, and let's just go there, um, Elon Musks, he has the X prize, it's a big money win. How, what's the money, what's at stake here if you win?

Jill (20:56):

I think the first prize is 50 million dollars. I think it's a hundred million dollar prize overall, and there's various smaller prizes, but I think the big prize is $50 million.

Abigail (21:04):

And so you got selected to be in the, you know, in the mix here. And you are currently number 60 top in the top, top 60 of, um, of projects in this, uh, ELAM Musk program. Is that correct?

Jill (21:22):

Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.

Abigail (21:24):

So tell me how you got involved in this. Um, first of all, I, you know, Elon Musk is the most vilified person on the internet at the moment, so it's actually, we're, we're gonna redeem his character a little bit here by talking about, um, Elon Musk is a real, um, you know, climate guy. He's really an environmentalist, really thinks that the, um, climate change is a, is the biggest problem facing our, you know, the human race right now. Um, tell me a little bit more about, about the Elon and this, this program.

Jill (22:00):

Well, it's clearly a real visionary in terms of, um, recognizing the need for sequestration. So it's not just about, um, reducing carbon and, um, reducing the input into the environment he's recognized that we need to take a significant amount of existing carbon out of the atmosphere. So, right. Um, this program is designed over four years and it's really helping a lot of organizations who are early stage and a good ideas around the world to sort of follow a roadmap and a process and, um, get assistance along the way to try and, um, speed up that journey. So it's, um, you know, hopefully it's gonna make a, a big difference to the planet in terms of if some of these technologies can be, um, increase the speed of getting them to, um, fruition, um, it'll make a, a significant, a significant impact.

Abigail (22:52):

And that's a very motivating prize.

Jill (22:55):

Yes, it is. But with, with all of these projects, um, to do projects in the deep ocean, it's very expensive. So, um, at the minute, um, you know, for the next stage, we'll probably need about 10 million in the next, um, 12 months, um, to be, um, looking at, um, operating and setting up a demonstration site, um, and actually, um, showing over time the results because, um, what we need now is instead of, um, lots of people doing small individual experiments, um, for a few, a few weeks here and a few weeks there, we really need to set up a, a site where, um, it can be monitored 24 7 over a longer period of time. So we get the results and we get the comfort, and we can make sure exactly as Edwina said, that we know exactly, um, how to, um, manage the, the nutrients that are added in the right quantities and get the, the best, best and the best, best results.

Abigail (23:48):

Right. Cuz there's a lot of detailed, um, sort of formula formulas there, right. You have to get the right formula for the fertil, let's just call it fertilizer. Um, and then you have to, um, get it in the right place. And is it temperature sensitive?

Jill (24:05):

Yes, yes, yes. And light and, yes. Yep.

Abigail (24:09):

So it's a very delicate balance. So you, you distribute it in one area, or you, or you do sort of like a, you mimic, uh, a whale swimming and, you know, discharging 600 liters of pee or something. How, how do you do it?

Edwina (24:27):

Yeah, well, both ways. So whales actually gather in pods. So, um, the idea is to have a site where you would release these nutrients and, and what happens when you're at a site is you, you have ocean currents that come through, so they, they naturally, uh, redistribute the material and, and take it downstream so that you, you can, you know, um, release certain amounts, uh, like in pulses, you, you would pulse out, uh, 300 liters or, or 500 liters of, of nutrients at a time, and then probably turn the pulse off and, and follow that patch and, and see how that goes And then do it again. Because as you also, there's a difference response depending on how many times you have put nutrients into a particular area because there's a different ecosystem created around it. Right. So it it's an evolving process there, there's this whole thing, right; But, but we have some background information, um, from a lot of natural process and experiments that have been done, um, before. So, so we, we have some idea what, what to expect and, and how to control these, um, yeah, responses

Abigail (27:37):

That's amazing. So, but I love this idea that there all these geniuses from around the world that are convening in this one prize. Is it collaborative?

Edwina (27:49):

Um, it is, uh, although what happens is with this prize, it's, people have very different methods of, uh, sequestering the carbon. So some are atmospheric, uh, using the atmosphere. Some are, uh, geological sequestration and some are ocean. And we are, um, in the small group of ocean sequestration, and we are only the only micro algal group in the xprize. The others are macro algi macro. So they're, they're looking at the seaweed, uh, growing and, um, placement into the bottom of the ocean. Um, so yes, we are collaborating, but we have slightly different agendas. Um, and I think the more collaborative platform is through the Ocean VisionsPlatform, where they have a whole community of, uh, and are building a roadmap for, uh, micro algal, uh, carbon dioxide removal, which is really, uh, uh, a great forum to, to, to be part of. Yeah.

Abigail (28:43):

I, I feel like it's really hard to lose if you have a robotic whale, you know, <laugh> like, I don't know, just like, that just seems like the path to, to the prize, the big money. Um, uh, now have, has something like that been built? Have you started on that? Is that, is that,

Edwina (29:03):

Um, well, the prototypes are out there, so the autonomous underwater vehicles are already out there, and the Argo floats. And, and so there's various instruments that are already in the ocean, um, during monitoring jobs. So we have, uh, thousands, so a couple of thousand biochemical floats in the ocean that are, uh, continuously monitoring, uh, the conditions out there. We also have autonomous underwater vehicles we can control. Um, and we also have these amazing, um, lenses that have been developed to, to, to look at this marine snow pro, um, you know, and sequestration problem. We have all the traps, so all of the instruments are out there, but, but what we want to do is kind of put them together into this, you know, this one package that can, can monitor and, um, do the job that we needed to do for our experiment. Yeah,

Abigail (29:49):

That just sounds amazing. So how many years long is this program and where are you in it?

Edwina (29:56):

Uh, well, we started in 2021, and we are, uh, now got told another year to, to actually measure, report, and verify a one kiloton carbon dioxide removal experiment using this technique. So we're, you know, the fire is <laugh> in the canon there.

Abigail (30:19):

So help me understand, what is one kiloton, uh, one kiloton of carbon out of the air? What does that, can you give me a visual? What does that

Edwina (30:31):

Mean? Okay, so a kiloton is a thousand tons. Yeah. And if you look at a whale, a whale is about 30,000 tons. So we're sequestering something about, um, you know, a third of the size of a whale <laugh>. Uh, but it's not in a block. So right. For us, it's, it's the phytoplankton we grow and then that gets eaten and that gets pooed out. And then what ends up in the, the bottom of the ocean. So we're looking at a very large ocean area, and I think this is what people don't understand. One of the terms that's previously been used with our, um, concept is, is dumping our formula into the ocean. But it's not, we are purposefully placing this into like an ocean paddock to, to grow fighter plankton over a large space that then does its job at the bottom of the ecosystem and stimulating the, uh, you know, the whole bottom of the food chain by 1%. The whole productivity of the ocean, we we're aiming to stimulate by, by 1%, you know, not, not anything more. 1% will do it. Yeah. That will get us to will it giga will, yeah. Yeah. If you look at the productivity of the entire ocean, stimulate that by 1% over this large area that will sequester a gigaton of carbon. So amazing. This is what we're aiming for.

Abigail (31:51):

Uh, that's just amazing <laugh>. Um, so, uh, so you're, you're partway through, you've got to prove you right now, you're in a testing period, you're testing to see, you know, what the right sort of dosage is and you know where to put it and what temperature, um, and then what, then what happens? You, you produce some results by a certain deadline?

Edwina (32:16):

Yeah, we have to have a, um, report, um, in by, it's pretty much this time next year, so Okay. Yeah. To, to, and then they will come out and, uh, send a email to actually look at what we're doing and verify, uh, all of our experiments. So this is the idea, you know, hopefully people will come and, and see what we're doing and measure it and, and say, yep, you, you've won the X price <laugh>, so

Abigail (32:43):

That's amazing. Yes. So have you met Elon Musk?

Edwina (32:47):

No, but we, um, he, he is generously, generously funding, um, a team or a company to come and make a film of us. So we got chosen.

Abigail (32:57):

Oh, fantastic.

Edwina (32:58):

Yeah. So we didn't win a million dollars in the first round. Our 15, uh, teams did nice, but we, uh, but we got chosen out of 10, uh, one of 10 teams that they're going to put a, a video together of what we're doing and show that. So that's happening in February. And hopefully we can use that to raise a bit more awareness and, um, some funding that we that's required. Yeah. And I say, look, you know, they're funding this at a, you know, a very small amount of money. I dunno how much, but it's, you know, in the tens of thousands of dollars. But what we need is people to fund, you know, money like blockbuster movies, like, this is what we need for science. So you look at Avatar that was 250 million dollars, 10 years in the making great film, nothing against it, but has that saved the world? No. Right. But if we in science get that kind of money to fund these projects at, you know, we can really do something <laugh>. 

Abigail (33:51):

Yeah. So is this a for-profit company?

Edwina (33:56):

Uh, we have Ocean Nourishment Corporation is a for-profit company, but the Whale X team is the, is the science arm, and we are spinning off to be a, um, uh, basically just to do the science. So we are raising funds to get the science done, and the business model will sit with the Ocean Nourishment Corporation.

Abigail (34:15):

So we will, so who needs to raise money now? How is that done? Is this a, is this grant funding for the, for the, um, for the ocean nourishment, or are you raising money for Whale X specifically?

Edwina (34:26):

Uh, at this point we're raising money for Whale X, but the Ocean Nourishment Corporation are also, um, you know, trying to raise capital as well. So, yeah.

Abigail (34:35):

So who do you go to? I mean, this is, you know, I talk to a lot of startups and you know, they go to the VCs around the corner, you know, and those VCs, you know, maybe have 10, 50, a hundred million dollars. Um, you need like a major, major sponsor or a suite of major, major sponsors.

Edwina (34:53):

Yeah. And the other problem is that they may not make their money back. So we've talked to many VCs and pitched our business, um, models, which are, you know, uh, we, we, we've had feedback, which is basically, you've got a great idea, but your business models are not so robust, which we, we basically put that out there because we need a lot of money in the, the startup and the business end of it is not quite secured yet. And that's a little way down the track. So VCs do not invest in companies that will not bring a big return. And this is what we've found, this has been, you know, mine [Nelson] as a scientist moving into the entrepreneurial world, is that you need to have a robust business model. So a lot of things are getting funded that they're not gonna save the world, but they're great ideas and they're gonna make some money and they're gonna do it a, you know, they're gonna do some good, uh, nothing wrong with that, but to, to get these really big ideas off the ground, you, you really need, uh, you know, a philanthropist who has a lot of money, who basically, uh, like Elon wants to save the world <laugh>.

Edwina (35:51):

Yeah. So John's got, yeah,

Abigail (35:54):

So you can't fund this through carbon credits?

Jill (35:58):

Well, I think, um, what you, you saying, um, Abigail just before was in terms of, you hit it on the head when you said, you know, do you need a suite of partners? And that's exactly what we need because, um, when the Ocean Nourishment Corporation started off in 2004, um, professor IAN Jones was working on the idea, and, you know, it is been worked on for a long period of time, but at that time, there was no demand, um, in the marketplace for carbon credits. Um, and it was all a one-sided, you know, trying to develop PIP to try and, um, do some good for the planet. So exactly as Edwina said, it was, you know, difficult to get, um, you know, investors because what was gonna be the return. But what's changed quite significantly in the last couple of years is as we've seen, um, all of the large corporates have now got, um, net zero commitments.

Jill (36:48):

And it's not just the case now of having commitments, it's now they're now getting to the pointy end of it. You know, what are they actually going to do? How are they actually going to manage that transition? How are they going to implement these plans? And obviously, if you are the CEO of a large corporation, you know, your primary objective is going to be decarbonizing your supply chain. But that's going take time in some cases, in some industries where emissions are hard to abate. Um, but then you, over the, some transition period, a lot of organizations are gonna be having to look at, um, carbon credits and carbon offsets. And what we're finding is, um, companies now like Stripe and Microsoft, um, they're looking at, um, realizing what can we pre-purchase, um, to try and get ahead of, you know, get our feet in the game early on to try and, um, understand the market and, um, get involved in some of these type of, um, operations.

Jill (37:41):

So exactly as you say, you know, looking at, um, purchasing future carbon offsets, um, is gonna be another stream of, um, potential revenue. It's still gonna take a couple of years with all of these, um, you know, ocean projects, there's still a few more years of work that's required. Um, there's issues around, you know, governance around rights about who owns what, what can actually be done in the oceans. So in terms of sort of more, um, coastal carbon projects starting, but even for coastal carbon, it's very early days. So if you look at the carbon offset markets, um, there's been a, a, a significant, um, increase over the last 12 months in terms of demand for offsets and projects. Yeah. But in the sort of, as, as you you'll know, in terms of, in the sort of the coastal areas, it's still quite early days.

Jill (38:34):

Um, there's a, a lot of people looking at mangroves, but actually getting those projects actually, um, to this, the point where you can actually, um, develop the credits, um, it, it takes a bit, takes a bit of time, and then for the deep ocean, that's sort of then the next round. But the great benefit with the deep ocean is the, um, the scalability and, you know, what, what can be done because we're not going to be able to, um, you know, obtain and create enough offsets from land and the deep ocean is where the potential is. So in terms of looking at something like the Whale X project, it's, it's this used that, it's, you know, potential scalability. It's, you know, is it cost effective? Can we do this at a cost whereby, um, people are gonna be happy to pay that price for carbon? And actually, as part of the xprize, that was one of the work streams we had to go through and look at, well, how can we, it was looking at a hypothetical project of, um, uh, a megaton scale if you were doing a megaton scale project.

Jill (39:37):

And we, um, looked at the economics of it over, um, a 20 year period. Um, and based on the assumptions that were part of the prize setup, um, we could get, um, um, sequester a ton for less than 50 US dollars a ton, which actually is actually now looking very economical. So, um, and actually quite in the last couple of days, um, the Australian government are looking at, you know, the price of carbon and they're looking at $85 a ton. So, you know, $50 a ton where, you know, we're looking like quite economical. And then the other factor that's really, um, important in looking at projects like this is it's really the permanence. So, you know, how long can the carbon be sequestered for? Um, so, and again, we tick another box there in terms of it's long term sequestration. So, um, when you sort of look through the criteria and the issues and the importance, we actually start to tick a lot of boxes.

Jill (40:36):

So, um, we think over the next 12 months when some of the large corporates start to realize that, um, there's going to be a shortage of the supply of credits, um, that, um, you know, they're gonna start looking at, um, different opportunities and, and really corporates should be looking at portfolio of, um, you know, opportunities rather than putting all the eggs in one basket. So, um, you know, we're quite, um, confident that over the next 12 months, things are gonna change quite quickly and people are gonna start to see the value in and getting involved, and especially, um, some of the large corporates that are already, um, working in the deep ocean. So, um, you know, in terms of, um, [the drilling,] yeah, e exactly. So one of the things that, that would sort of, um, be a great setup for us would be in terms of repurposing an offshore oil rig, um, as a, as a platform, um, for where we could, um, set up the distribution for, um, the nutrients going into the ocean and, you know, can we look at, um, modular green pneumonia to put on the platforms? And so it is, it's, um, yeah, it's very interesting. And so in terms of when, sort of a long answer to your question, but in terms of, um, looking at the suite of partners, you know, some of the large corporates that are already working in the deep ocean would be, you know, perfect partners. And often they've got, um, you know, they currently got high emissions. So in terms of offsetting, you know, there's quite a perfect match there.

Abigail (42:01):

Amazing. So is there a part of this world's geography that works best for this? Like, is it better in the Gulf of Mexico? Is it better in the, you know, I don't know, in Australia or, you know, what's the

Edwina (42:18):

Yeah, there, there is, and if you look at, um, ocean nutrient map distributions, you, we have these, uh, these projects that have been going on for a long time, and they, they measure the, the, the nutrients in the ocean, um, on a large scale. And so you've got your, um, polar region, which are high nutrients, but low in iron. So there's a, a big focus on, um, iron fertilization in, in the polar regions. So, um, but for our purposes, um, you know, we'd put more iron in our mix rather than, and less nitrogen if we were going to those regions. Okay. But in the, in the mid-latitudes, um, and the, you know, other areas you can see there's a, a real lack of nitrogen and, um, in, you know, two thirds of the world ocean. And also you've got very good light conditions. So also in the polar regions, you have, you can't actually fertilize when it's, when there's not enough light.

Edwina (43:10):

So, um, you know, you, you have to look at all these factors, but we have very good, uh, mapping and, um, sort of artificial intelligence that we're using to tell us what are the good areas, where are the good times, um, what is the nutrient mix we need for these different regions. So, so we have that kind of modeling happening, um, at the moment. But they're very large areas. And just to put in a perspective, when you're looking at, um, you know, people call it blue carbon, which is coastal carbon that we're trying to sequester through, um, you know, a mangrove salt marsh and, um, macroalgae, but that comprises 2% of the entire ocean area. So, so this is the scalability that we're looking at with, um, with phyto plankton, is that, you just have this massive, massive region that you can use and, but it's also not a magic bullet.

Edwina (43:59):

So, so when we look at our solution, we, we do need to talk to the other people who are working in this area because they, you know, they interact. So we have o ocean alkalinity people looking at the acidification problem, and maybe there's a little bit of a mix of the olive vine that we could add to, you know, to to, to solve a little bit of the acid acidification problem, you know, that we put into the nutrients that we put out in the ocean. Or maybe there's, um, you know, for, for macroalgae, if there is too many nutrients in an area, maybe we can grow some macroalgae around these nutrients. So, so all of these things need to, um, also interact together. We have, you know, we, we look at silos, um, sometimes in, in, in the world, and that's not how the, the, the real world works. We, we, we need to look at how all these things interact and, and, and work together to get them all working, um, you know, on the same page. So, uh, but nature really is, is is our guide here. Um, and how, and how that's done.

Edwina (46:16):

And I mean, our whole process is really designed to rebuild the whale populations But a whale takes a hundred years to grow, you know, to to, to fully develop and to absorb all that carbon and to do its work. So all the things that we can do in the meantime, you know, to shop, stop ship strikes, um, to increase, uh, coastal ocean, uh, sequestration, all of the things together that we can do are all good. But to really make a difference to the planet, we need to invest in these really big, um, big concepts and, and test them out robustly. Yeah.

Abigail (44:56):

Yeah. Well, the ocean certainly is not in a silo. And, you know, that's, that's why I think this is such a compelling, interesting project because you are, you know, it's, it's so fluid and it's, it's just works on so many different layers of, you know, of the whole ecosystem. It was funny because you were talking about sort of, um, adjusting the, the, the recipe. And I was, and I got this sort of vision of like, you know, we talk a lot now about the gut biome, and I was like, this is like, I feel like they're doing, like adjusting the gut biome of the, of the ocean. It's, and it's not entirely unlike that, is it?

Edwina (45:38):

No, we, we've actually likened this to, to like a little, a neutral bullet, you know, formula for the ocean. Yeah. <laugh>. So it's, you know, there, there are a lot of parallels and, and I think this is what we need is these, um, these, these ways that people think about this because you can't see what's happening in the ocean. So you, you need to get an idea in your mind of, of how this is working. And when I talk to people, sometimes you actually see the light bulb go on at first, you're talking to them and they think, oh, hi, I'm fgo blooms, and you know, yada, yada yada. But as you go on and you talk about the whales and, and the nutrients and all of this, then you say, oh, okay. And, and they get an analogy, you know, like, like the nutra bullet, like the gut, like, uh, you know, like what whales have been doing.

Abigail (46:50):

Yeah. Um, well, Elon Musk found in, um, investors for Tesla when nobody and his, you know, SpaceX. So I, I, I feel like there's, the dreamers are out there, and sometimes that's really pays back. Um, so, uh, I, I don't think I need to ask why this is gonna make the world a better place, but I am hearing both of you like so passionate about this, and I, and I wanna know about your levels of optimism about the future and some of these climate change, you know, are meeting, are meeting some of these climate change targets. Are you both hopeful in the world that you're working in? Do you see, do you think we're gonna beat this race against time?

Jill (47:38):

Well, going back a couple of years, it did look quite a long way off, but actually what happened in Covid and how quickly when we had to solve a big global problem, how quickly when everybody put their mind to challenge, um, how people came up with, um, a vaccine, how we managed that problem, then I think it is possible. And also if we even just look in this space, as I mentioned earlier, in terms of the shift in the last two years from corporates, you know, it being sort of on the agenda, but it was more sort of, um, social corporate responsibility to now it's really, it's not sort of sidelined. It's now on the main board agenda as a strategic strategic imperative. And, you know, people have made the commitments and now they're going to have to, there's a lot of more reporting, um, required around the world. People are going to have to show that they've got, um, plans in place and actually start delivering. So I think, um, and also with the price on carbon being put in place in more locations around the world, I think, um, I'm optimistic that, um, things are gonna change, um, quite significantly in terms of some of these ocean-based technologies in the next two to three years.

Abigail (48:52):

Yeah. It does feel sometimes a gore at a tipping sport. Tipping point. Edwina?

Edwina (48:56):

Yeah. Well, I guess, um, from my perspective, uh, education is really important in this space. And I look at, um, people's perceptions and attitudes from a hundred years ago where we were slaughtering whales, you know, ad hoc for, you know, blubber and meat and, um, and, and now looking at how people are perceiving, uh, the ocean and the space at that live. We have one planet, one ocean, and one atmosphere that we all have to share. And there's billions of us on this planet. And I think we're beginning to get that. We're really beginning to understand that concept. And I am really encouraged that the children growing up today, unfortunately, they, they've never lived in a world without the climate change problem. When I was growing up. It, it wasn't an issue. You know, we had Rachel Carsons and some of the, their chemical, uh, poisonings that we were doing to the planet, um, coming to light.

Edwina (49:47):

But now I think the kids of today are, are, are a lot more educated, and we see this mind shift of, um, I, I think compassion that we're, we're looking at creatures in the ocean in a different way than we used to. And, and understanding, uh, you know, their value to us, we're actually also hearing, I, you know, it's a, a real visual. We're hearing the whale scream. We're they're telling us that, you know, we need to do better by them. And I, I think this is what the planet is beginning to listen to, and she need to, so I'm hopeful.

Abigail (50:17):

That's great. I, I just on that, like, I feel like I've learned a lot about animals through Instagram. I know that sounds kind of crazy and I, social media has so many ills, but I follow a lot of sort of animal, you know, I don't know a lot of people, I wa I follow post things about whales or birds playing. Like growing up I didn't imagine that birds would play together. And I feel like it's actually really helping all of us better understand through some of these social media outlets that, um, that, that animals are people too, <laugh>. Yeah.

Edwina (50:58):

They, they are, they're just like us, and they have feelings and they play and they're curious, and they actually all have their role to play in the environment. And we need to understand that a lot better because, you know, by wiping them out that, you know, we're doing harm to ourself and our own planet.

Abigail (51:13):

Yep. Everything's connected. So, um, you, you're meeting lots of entrepreneurs, you're seeing a lot of amazing people in action. What advice would you guys give to, um, um, to entrepreneurs in the impact world that are like you trying to make the world a better place, but maybe they're not quite where you are yet?

Jill (51:36):

Well, I think, um, one of the things that's quite important is to understand it's a journey. And, um, it's not often these things are not a quick fix. Um, people often come into new startups and think, oh, in 12 months, 12 months we'll have solved the problem, and that's it. But actually a lot of, um, these technologies and ideas and getting something to market takes, takes a lot longer. So I would say really, um, resilience and, um, not to give up, keep trying. Um, those, um, a great British entrepreneur, um, James Dyson, um, who developed the vacuum cleaner, and I think with his vacuum cleaner, he had, I think it was over 5,000 prototypes before he got it to work. So I think it's really about, you know, follow, follow your, um, dream and your vision and keep trying and really don't give up.

Abigail (52:26):

That's wonderful.Edwina?

Edwina (52:30):

I, I think it's also, um, you know, be a little bit open-minded to other people and other solutions because your solution, um, may seem like the best, but perhaps other people have something to offer and, um, you know, maybe there's a better way to do it. So I think it's, it's being able to be adaptable and, and, and bring on new knowledge. And also, you know, if it doesn't work, go in another direction. Don't, don't bang your head against the wall, just, you know, keep learning and, and keep persevering. But, uh, yeah, I think it's really just taking on board other people's perceptions, because I see in this space at the moment, people getting funded, you know, millions of dollars and, and you know, saying, we've got the fix, we've got the answer, we've got the magic bullet. And you know, you go, there is no magic bullet. There is no one answer. We all need to work together in this space and, and, and, you know, take on other people's ideas and concepts. So I, I think that's a big one is, is really get out there and network and, and get out, get ideas and, and take them on board. Yeah. Yeah.

Abigail (53:31):

Great. Both, both really important pieces of advice. Um, uh, thank you so much. I feel so much smarter than I, uh, was an hour ago, and I just really am really excited about this project. It just, um, it tickles the imagination, but it sounds like it could just be a powerful, powerful tool. And it sounds like, you know, you might be able to have a really important role in our carbon market too. Uh, you might be coming at the right place at the right time, so, um, I just wish, wish you so much luck with this.

CONCLUSION

A huge thanks to Jill and Edwina for taking the time to come on the show. They certainly have enough on their plate! On our former guest Bill Curtstinger’s suggestion, I joined the Save the Whale foundation as a young girl. And while organizations like that may have helped reduce the active killing of whales, as Jill and Edwina note we still need a lot more of whales on the planet before they can resume their full ecological role. Whale X seeks to fill that gap. But the project is huge. Many of the startups we’ve discussed have been scalable which means they can get big, but also that they can start small. Being able to start small certainly makes things a lot easier. But Whale X, not unlike TESLA, really needs to start at a huge scale. SO the funding of a project like that becomes challenging. Fortunately there are people like Elon Musk in the world who are willing to put huge amounts of cash on the table so really big picture projects can have a shot at getting off the groudn. 

CREDITS

On a final note, I just want to thank you for your continued listening is such a gift. Thank you. If you like what we’re doing don’t forget to follow Happy Planet wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review. I am also always delighted to hear from listeners - tell me what you like, don’t like, and feel free to recommend new guests! 

Happy Planet was reported and hosted by me. I am also the Executive Producer. The talented Dylan Heuer [hoyer] is our producer and editor. Composer GEORG BRANDL EGOFF created our theme music. Learn more about my work and get in touch by visiting happyplanetpodcast.com.