Is Biomimicry the key to sustainable industrial design? Sidney Rostan, Founder and CEO, BIOXEGY

Happy Planet Wednesday! 

If you've ever drawn inspiration from nature, this is the podcast for you. 

Our guest this week is Sidney Rostan, a Paris-based entrepreneur and biomimicry expert. If you remember from one of our first podcasts, biomimicry is the design and production of solutions that are modeled on biological entities and processes. 

Sidney's engineering firm, BIOXEGY, proposes industrial engineering solutions that are uniquely designed to mimic nature. He says solutions modeled after nature have many advantages, including better sustainability, and the benefit of thousands of years of nature's fine-tuning. 

To listen, tune into Happy Planet on Apple , Spotify, our website, or pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts. 

Transcript

Abigail: 0:05

Welcome to the podcast where we celebrate innovation for a happy planet. I am your host, Abigail Carroll. If you've ever drawn inspiration from nature, this is the podcast for you. We're gonna talk about biomimicry, a method of innovation that finds its solutions in nature. Our guest this week is Sydney Roston, a Paris based entrepreneur and bi biomimicry expert who has built his company Biog by exclusively offering innovative industrial engineering solutions that are designed to mimic nature. He says, solutions modeled after nature have many advantages, but let's hear it from Sydney. Welcome to the podcast, Sydnee.

Sidney: 0:50

Yes. Thanks Abigail for having me.

Abigail: 0:53

I am delighted to have you here. Your interest in biomimicry is very dear to my heart. It's a subject that I just find fascinating. So let's start at the beginning. What is biomimicry?

Sidney: 1:06

Well, biomimicry is a research and development. Approach. It's kind of a methodology that consists in drawing inspiration from nature's most ingenious designs. So when we talk about nature's ingenious designs, you can have intelligent materials, composite materials, you can have chemical processes. We are talking about functions. We are also talking sometimes about behavioral aspects. So it is all of biomimicry consists of drawing. Inspiration from all of this, I would say biological knowhow. This, that has been around for millions of years in most cases. And so the idea behind biomimicry is of course, to use as much as possible this kind of intelligence and the fact that it is optimized. And then also use the fact that. Nature most of the time is very sustainable. I would say even all of the time, sustainable, circular, low footprint in terms of en energy materials, et cetera. So biomimicry is all of that. At first it was kind of a philosophy, I would say. When you look at inventors, even I would say hundreds of years ago getting inspiration from nature was kind of something that was. I would say kind of a habit when it comes to geometry forms. Sometimes also behavioral aspects that were easy to copy and to mimic. Think of course of first airplane dis airplane designer designers. It was kind of obvious to go see inspiration in birds and and fly and fireflies. Sex, et cetera. That, that there is kind of, the link is easy to make. But over time, over the last decades, I would say for the last 50 years, it has progressively become something very specific. We are talking about high hand r and d most of the time. So it's sophisticated is also. Indirect links. So it's not just about forms and geometries, it's about, yeah, as I said, chemicals, materials, composite materials something that is sometimes at the nano scale or micro scale. So biomimicry has evolved from something that was a philosophy and a mindset at the beginning to an r and d discipline and expertise that is very specific now.

Abigail: 3:26

Wow. Very interesting. So you use that in your company by gy?

Sidney: 3:32

Yes Biji is one of the European experts in biomimicry. Actually, biomimicry is so much niche that we can, we could also say that we are one of the international experts and our role is to develop bio-inspired technologies. May it be for clients or for ourselves? So we actually I would say our core job is to work together with industrial companies in the automotive domain, chemical domain. It can be in the construction industry, it can be in the luxury or consumer goods industry. So industrial players that do have challenges most of the time we interact with r and d departments or innovation depart. They submit these challenges and our job, it, it may seem odd, but that's what RY is all about, is looking into nature to see how nature solve this specific challenge. And then being able to do kind of a biotic retro engineering that consisting going from the biological model that we have investigated and identified. To a bio-inspired technology. So that's our job. Of course, most of the time it's B2B, so business to business and sometimes it's also our own team that creates a technology and that then patent a technology. It, it really depends. But our core job is B2B.

Abigail: 4:52

So it's so interesting to me that you know the direction of the information. You start with this problem, and then you have the whole universe to look into. How do you, narrow that search down?

Sidney: 5:06

Yeah, it's actually, it's a struggle. Yeah. You know? At first we had to investigate a lot. That means hours and hours, I would say even months and months of work, investigative work you know, going through huge amounts of biological models. That can put us biological papers. So you know, scientists everywhere over the world in Guatemala, in in Costa Rica, in Egypt, in in in Italy all over the world. So bio biologists that describe nature. And of course they publish bio, bio biological papers. So scientifical papers that describe. Biological system you know, animals, plants, et cetera, et cetera. And our job is basically to be able to identify that. We still do that today. So there is a lot of work behind that, but over the years, it has become simpler for our teams. Why? Because we have gathered expertise. We have gathered experience, which means that when we come across a challenge that is submitted by our partner. Let's say for example, a, a client that says, okay, I, I want to be able to dissipate heat in a more efficient way for my battery pack that has the tendency to overheat. So how can I dissipate heat in a more efficient way? Over time we've came across the challenge so much, and so frequently that we have gathered. Enough experience not to avoid looking into each biological paper and, and doing month of work more. Nowadays it's simpler for biog. We know where and how nature dissipate dissipates seed. So we, we do have kind of a database that is. Easier for us to to go looking in to, to make this kind of investigative work. Of course, this does not mean that we do not have investigative work anymore. We, we still contact biologists. We still go through loads of scientific literature in order to find the good biological models and good animals, good, good plants, et cetera. The right species that has the right. System and the right property in order to be able to, to address the challenge. But I would say it's easier nowadays, eight years on we've gathered experience, so we have efficient databases.

Abigail: 7:27

So when you find some, a solution in nature that looks like it might work. There's some translation along the way. How do you look at something that's happening either in an animal or in a plant, and kind of translate that into, you know, sort of engineering, mechanical engineering.

Sidney: 7:46

Exactly, that's what we, that's what we call retro engineering. So biometric, retro engineering, being able so it, it's not easy. And most of the time that's, I would say one of the historical limits of, of biomimicry is that, there was kind of an observation in nature one way we thought, wow, that's crazy. Interesting. Sophisticated. It's really interesting. Yes. But the problem is it needs to come, it, it needs to, you know the, the output needs to be technology that is fees. There's this cost effective that can be applied to industrial platform or industrial production process. It needs to answer market needs and sometimes also, of course, regulative needs and regulate regulations. We, we need to respect them as well. So this means that I would say part and, and the, the bigger, the biggest part of being a matician. That's why we, that's how we call a bio-inspired engineer. At Biog is being able not only to identify the biological model, but be being able to reproduce and copy in a feasible way. So of course it's all a question of material that are used of the implication in terms of feasibility. So feasibility, investigative work in order to understand well, okay some molecules, proteins. Some taxations some structural architectures, optical layers, coatings that you do observe in nature are built in a certain way by the growth of the plant, the growth of an animal or by you know organical, organical, maintenance. So molecules that indirect together then that, that can be repaired, for example, over time, et cetera. So this happens in nature, but once we observe that in nature, we are not typically and, and systematically able to reproduce that with the same materials for industrial purposes. That that does not happen this way. So for example, if you see taxation, let me give you one example. If you see. Taxation in nature, for example, that avoid reflection on a surface. So it can be interesting for it can be interesting for several purposes in the, in the industry. It can be for the optical industry. It can be interesting also for the consumer goods industry. So how do you avoid reflections? Well, what happens in nature is taxation. Yeah. And taxation. Is, as I said, the growth of the, of the animal or, or itself. So it happens over time over, over, over months or over days. But transpose it to something that needs to be produced a hundred fold thousands fold per, per minute or per day for the consumer goods industry. And you'll find that this text duration, it doesn't need, it can't be grown. It needs to be produced, for example, with. Laser taxation or specific molding that have cost implications that are comfortable with the industry or the, the sector we are working with. So part of our job is to understand this transposition being able to do this retro engineering. And again, it's also a question of experience. Over time we've came to understand how we can transpose specific systems to in industrial use cases. This question is complex because there are as many answers possible as there are sectors and use cases possible. I would say that the good news is that our success rate is around 70% and being able to transform a biological model 70% of the time into something that is viable. Industrially speaking is. Is, is a good first step, and I would say is a successful is successful enough and reassuring enough for clients to test biomimicry and say, okay, this is credible and I want to work with BioCity. But sometimes I won't lie about it. Sometimes it's harsh, so. It is also being able to correctly anticipate the topic that you're addressing. So actually this is kind of a huge learning for biog and for every engineer that works at biog. Is that before you know, launching our ourself. Into a bio-inspired project where we say, okay, biomimicry is it's versatile. It can dress every type of situation, et cetera. Yes, on a theoretical point of view, it could, but nowadays we. Put a lot of efforts before launching a project to discuss the topics at hand with our partners. And so what happens most of the time is that we actually ask them for a list of topics. So topics where they think they have. Problems, challenges. So it can be pain points, can be incremental topics. It can also be disruptive topics, but we ask them for a list. And out of this list we, we select the topics where we think we have the best chances of success. Not only because Bio Creek can actually bring an added value compared to conventional engineering, but also because Byman McCree has good chances of. I mean, the technology can be feasible at the end. So it's the experience that is talking there. And I think that is something that is really appreciated by our prospects and by our clients.

Abigail: 13:11

Can you just elaborate a little bit on that? What are the advantages? Like if a client has a problem to fix and that's on a, you know, part of that list that you really feel like you've got some insight on, and it can relate to this nature's functioning. How might your solution differ from a classical engineering solution and how is that, how is the client appreciative of that?

Sidney: 14:07

I would say that, first of all, when it comes to solving pain points, imagine for example in Europe, I, I'm not sure if it's if it's the case in the us, but I would imagine it, it will at some point also be a big topic is how do you prevent, for example, eternal polls, you know PFAS, it's called PFAS in France. I think it's the international word for that. So, yeah, same in the states. So PFAS, how do you avoid that? So, most industrial data, it's, it's used in, in a lot of different sectors. Will have explored many ways to, solve a specific function thanks to PFAS. But once you come across a pain point where you have tested many coatings, many surface dation, many types of materials, chemicals, polymers, et cetera, et cetera you are in such, you know, in such difficulty that it is actually interesting to find an alternative and say, okay, this specific function that I have solved over decades ago with PFAS I want to understand how nature solved this specific challenge. And that's where biomimicry in Handy is. Okay. Finding a similar function, but seeing how this similar function is actually done or actually addressed in nature. That's the first added value I would say when it comes to incremental innovation. Let's say we have a partner that wants to reduce the vibration in a. Electric car. So electric cars is, are, are create new problems of vibrations. So noise, vibration, acoustic challenges. So how can I reduce the paras parasitic noise that are created by auto electric vehicles or electric motors and platforms. Doing incremental innovation in terms of RY means that you want to understand how, how has nature optimized a specific function? For example, reducing noise with composite materials specific foam structures, specific interfaces, et cetera, et cetera. So you. Benefit from the optimized way Biomimicry has been, nature has been evolving over years and years and years. So the added value, the whole purpose of doing biomimicry is getting the chance to look at something. That has been around for millions of years, or for at least thousands and thousands of years. So basically what you benefit from is kind of the biological selection process we are talking about you know trial and error for, for years and years and

Abigail: 16:45

not the beta.

Sidney: 16:47

So, yeah. Yeah. Not the better, better version. So this means that you actually can achieve performance, you can achieve sustainability depending on the topic that you have. Sometimes it's lightweight design. Sometimes it's. Noise absorption. Sometimes it can be. Yeah, as I said, reducing reflectance. When we talk about optical system I talked also about dissipating heat. Exchanging heat isolation. You have many, many different use cases. So looking into nature means looking into optimized and enhanced system. And last, if you look at disruptive innovation, it can, so when you. Basically try to completely over over ramp or overhaul. I don't remember the, the English word for that. So completely rethink of a technology. A specific technology is done. So when you want to do something very disruptive, very new. Doing bio Mac Creek can also mean being very ideated. It creates new ideas, creates new new concepts. It can be interesting. Let me give you one example. If you, if you want, for example, to reshape and rethink of the way you, you design, for example, a lending gear. For an, for an aircraft. So lending gears are always the same system dampeners braking system of course the wheels, et cetera, et cetera. You could do two, two things with biomimicry. First thing, it's good doing. Incremental innovation, as I said. So for example, how do I reduce the weight by 10% or by 15%? And you look into natural structures that are very interesting when it comes to finding the right ratio between weight and resistance, resistance to compression forces, distortion forces, et cetera. So you could do incremental innovation with nature. And you look into bone design, you look into specific composites in tree structures, et cetera. So you'll find a lot of interesting models when it comes to lightweight design. So that's for the incremental part. But when it comes for the disruptive part, you could also perfectly ask the question if it is your intention. Well, I don't just want to reduce the weight of the lending gear by 10%. My interest is what does the lending gear look like? In 10 years or 15 years time, I want to completely revamp my, my system. I want to, to have something that is completely new and breakthrough, and then biome crew useful because you can ask the question, which is, which is ideated, at least at first, which is how does nature land? How does nature jump? How does nature stabilize itself, itself, for example, in wrecked terrain? You know, you understand, and, and so you can do creative things with nature. So does this answer your question, Abigail?

Abigail: 19:36

Yeah, it's, it's wonderful. So, do you have a favorite inspiration in nature? Is there something in nature that's just kind of blown your mind? Like a favorite, I dunno, plant or animal that does something just really outrageous that you could to share with us?

Sidney: 19:52

I mean, I could give an example of a project we had because it's one of my favorite ones and I think it's a beautiful project.

Abigail: 20:00

Yep.

Sidney: 20:01

A couple of years ago, it was actually two and a half years ago there was one of our clients in the construction industry. So we are not talking about aerospace, we're not talking about automotive, et cetera, which are the fields where Ry is, is used. We're talking about construction industry. They came and they asked us, okay we want to find an alternative. To quick lime. Quick Lime is a chemical and helps agglomerates soil particles for construction industry. So our client was using quick lime in order to stabilize. The soil and the terrain where then they build. Then there the construction, you have to stabilize the field, the soil, you have to have it very compact, mechanically stable, and also chemically stable. You don't want to, you don't want to, you field or your terrain to erode. If they are, for example, heavy rains and in order to do so they use quick line. And so quick line is perfect on the paper. It creates mechanical stability. It creates chemical stability, is fast reaction. It's a great chemical and it's the costs are reasonable. But the problem with quick, quick line is, the quick line is that quick line is ours is actually very carbon intensive. One ton of quick line means one ton of CO2 that is used. And so if, for example, our line was using maybe remember for 50 or 60 thousands, tons of quick line each year, it means a huge carbon footprint. And in Europe it's a problem. It's a real problem, but not only is it a problem in terms of carbon footprint, it was becoming a problem in terms of economical balance problem that is that quick lime because of energy instability energy, cost instability in Europe was beginning to be very, very, very expensive. So they asked us to find an alternative. We went to look into nature in, insects that are very good in building so. I would say architectural geniuses. And we ended up looking into termites. We perfectly know that termites are good architects because they create interesting structures that are already already used in architecture for ventilation purposes, et cetera, et cetera. But actually what got into our, in our, what got our interest is that termites creates. Mounts. So they create their homes, things to local soil, agile that they're using, but also biopolymers that exist. So fibers of plants, leaves, et cetera, that are found locally. So they agglomerate all of. In order to create the huge mounts, six meters high, maybe 15, 20 meters also underground. So this whole thing is mechanically stable, but it's also chemically stable. You can have. Rain heavy rains on the to moons mounds, and it would, it, it won't crumble. So it's very, very compact and very rigid and very mechanically stable. So we looked in decipher to, well, how does the tur do that? What, what's, what's the chemical secret behind that? And we actually. Found out that termites were using their saliva to do so, and more specifically, within their saliva. There were parts of chemical compounds and thematic compounds that are used in order to do this kind of chemical reaction and happens fast. So their aglo, aglo their chemical that agglomerates the soil. Is within their saliva. By understanding the suffering, all of that, we were able to understand that we could actually reproduce that in this in a synthetic way. So actually, the goal is not to have. You know, forms of termites where we actually, you know, farm their saliva. It's not the, it's not the objective. Our objective was to create something that was industrially feasible. And there you go again. How do I make this happen on a large scale? And so we synthesized what we found, the compounds that we found in the sali in the term of the sali in the saliva term. Sorry. In the termite saliva, we were able to do that and synthesize that on a industrial scale. We brought the cost down. We completely reduced the, the we, we hugely reduced the CO2 footprint. I think it was by 70%. We were then able also to use that on the industrial scale. So test it actually, not only in the labs as a proof of concept, but then as well on the field. So this means that this technology, this bio-inspired chemical that replaces quick lime, it's a agglomerating chemical is actually used in France. On the fields. We have pilots testing fields, and it actually behaves the way we wanted it to be. So it wa it is a, a great project and that's one of my most favorite ones because not only does it prove that well of course re is useful, but it proves as well that re is useful in terms of chemicals. And for the construction industry, which is a. Cost conscious industry because it has low margins. And of course the termites are, you know, very interesting insects. And it also shows that Biore is not only useful for in terms of economics, you know, performance. So bringing the cost down but also in terms of CO2 footprint. And let me tell you that our clients will win bidding contests. For construction sites because they have something that is less expensive and that is less CO2 emitting. So they will have a huge competitive advantage within their industry. So I think that's one of my favorite one. And, and the termite also is a, is a nice favorite of of mine. I do also like butterflies and and dragonflies. Because I think that there are very, well very efficient predators. They have a lot of equipment. If you look at the dragonfly, a dragonfly is, has a very sophistic, a very sophisticated vision system. They can look all around they have fast for, fast vision system so they can see in slow motion. They have an efficient vision system so they can. Track their prey without using too much energy for the, for their vision system and for the you know, the, the computing system, which are, which is actually the brain. So they're very efficient in terms of image processing, which could be interesting for algorithms, for example, autonomous algorithm. They also obviously have very efficient flying systems. So we are talking about a very advanced aerodynamics. They can fly backwards. They can fly on, on, and they can stay on the same place. They can fly fast forward. They can also have a lot of acceleration, deceleration. And of course after that it's also interesting to note that they have lightweight design on their rings. Their wings are both lightweight, very resistant, but also transparent. And their wings are sophisticated enough to be able also to prevent bio fooling, which is the growth of bacteria on the wings. Because they live in very humid environments. So dragonflies are very very well known predators. Their success rate is 98%. So I think it's a fascinating insects. And we've had at least half a dozen project that where, where we had use cases getting and technologies inspired by parts of the, of the dragonfly. So it's one of my favorites.

Abigail: 28:13

I love it. Your passion is just so clear. How did you get going in this? What? Where did you discover that this would be your calling?

Sidney: 28:22

Yes. So I'm a, I'm a business school graduate, so I'm actually, I'm not an engineer and I'm not a biologist. Whereas most of my team is but it's not my

Abigail: 28:32

Oh, good thing.

Sidney: 28:33

And so I hadn't heard of biomimicry before. And I started my career in the automotive industry in Germany because I'm half German. So I started working at Audi and at Porsche aga. And, germans used to work on biomimicry. They called it bionics. Mostly for mechatronic proper purposes, but also for lightweight design. And I heard of it, I heard of biomimicry and was a kind, oh, this is, this is interesting. And I was at this, at the stage where I thought I, I wanted. To explore new ways of innovative innovation. I wasn't sure if I wanted to become an entrepreneur but I wanted to be free and envi very, very dynamic environments. And of course I wanted my job to make purpose, to have a purpose. So I wanted something that could create new technologies, but. Technologies that, that were sustainable, that were circular or at least that could make a difference somehow. And so when I came across, so it was. Practically 10 years ago when I come, came across biomimicry, I immediately became passionate for the reason that you can feel is that it's, it's, it's so magical and it's kind of an obvious idea to say, well, nature has had treatment eight billions, years of evolution. So it's, it's, it's it's a enhanced r and d laboratory and the ideas. Eent, it's sorry. It's it's subtle. I like the idea. And of course juggling between biology and engineering was also very attractive. So I became passionate around that. But fact is that, after a couple of weeks of me, you know, reading books around biomimicry looking at TEDx conferences and, and yeah, and, and, and every stuff that you could find online. The fact was that, okay, biome crew is interesting, but how come I don't hear so much success stories? You can find some success stories, but it's always the same. And I thought, well, this is kind of odd. How come that, how come that RY is not used on more? Democratized way and our mo more massive way. You know, we hear about artificial intelligence, we hear about quantum computing. So we hear about new frontiers of innovation. All of all of the day, but not that much biomimicry, although more so 10 years ago. And so I quickly understood that biomimicry has been around for some decades in hop uphill science. So for example, in the US we are talking about Northrop Goman Lockhead margin. And so a company in the aerospace industry working with. Uphill science. So Harvard, MIT Stanford, Caltech, Virginia Tech, et cetera. So uphill science, aerospace industry and, and, and, and projects that takes years to evolve. So, of course you would find patents and actually the dynamics about bio-inspired technology being pa patented is growing. So there is kind of a fast moving dynamics here, but. What I observed is that may it be in the United States or in Europe or in Asia. It is difficult to find a lot of success stories and the transmission between uphill science and downhill corporate research and development and then products is difficult to make. For biomimicry. And so I thought to myself, well, it could be interesting to create a company that would be an expert in that. I must say that of course it was kind of a moonshot. But I was in my early twenties. I had nothing to lose and so I thought, well, maybe it's the time for me to build a dream company. And so at, at first I was like alone on that. And again, I'm not an engineer, so my objective was to create kind of a consulting firm for at least a year, and then after a year being able to transform it into an engineering company. And so that's exactly how it went down in 2017. I 2018, sorry. So it, it will be eight years ago in a couple of months I created biog and I went look for, for first clients, telling them, okay. Guys, hello. This is Biome Cree. This is how Biomimicry could be useful. Let's do some workshops. And so the first ones were like, okay, this guy is crazy. But he's passionate, pa passionate. He, he, he is, selling the idea, well, why not test the workshop for maybe a thousand euro or 2000 euros, you know? And so also I think day two had nothing to lose in testing that. And I think it went well. The first workshops were the, my, my first client was in the automotive domain. And, and the first workshop were conclusive enough so that they you know, asked me to, to, to pursue the projects and tell me, okay. The idea of Biore is, is interesting. We understand how Biore could be useful for our use cases. And I was expert enough to have investigative work on my own, even if, if I was not an engineer. And then they asked me after the workshop, so what now? And this, what now was the pre what was the, I think the kind of the signal to, to say, okay. This is great. The idea that had to create a consulting company that then evolves to an engineering company actually works because then the need is there. They say, okay, what now? Now we want to develop the concept. Then we hand we want to have a proof of concept, and then we have, we want to develop the technology and go through the, all the, the, the technology maturity levels. And so. At this stage I told them, okay, if you want it to happen you have to pay me part of the project. When we start the project and when we sign the project. And with this money, I was able to recruit the first engineers and then over time. Gather and hire a, a, a a team of engineers that have experienced enough. And so that's yeah, that's the entrepreneurial story. That has been yeah, that has been mine for the last eight years.

Abigail: 35:38

So how many, how many folks do you have in your firm today?

Sidney: 35:41

are 30 people strong. So I would say it's not a startup anymore. It's kind of a more of a scale up company or mid-sized company. And yeah, and and recruiting new go, new ones. Yeah, that's the, and, and over time we've. We've worked with French companies. So I went back to France to create my company because I thought that the startup atmosphere, that startup mindset in France was interesting and was favorable. I think it was the good conditions. You have a lot of subsidiaries you have a lot of help from the states, et cetera. So it was kind of a good ecosystem to create a company, to create a startup. And I created the company. We had the, our first French clients. Now we have clients in Germany, in Switzerland, in Belgium, in Austria. We even have clients in, in Japan. We have our first clients also in the United States. We have them in Italy. So the growing, the company is growing international. And that's, I think that's a good sign. I, I'm, I'm very proud of that.

Abigail: 36:45

So did you ever have to raise money? I mean, you've got this startup, it's doing well, it's growing. It it, because you're in a consulting firm, it was just sort of slow growth and you own your own company. That's

Sidney: 36:55

Exactly the, the consulting business means I ha I could do kind of a bootstrap or organic growth logic. So I don't have investors. But in the future we'll have other business models. So as I said we are also creating our new technologies, which mean that one day or the other will have to have investors in on onboard. But maybe on a branch of Biogen, not the, the, not the job and the and the general business model that we've had over the years.

Abigail: 37:26

And is that how you see the balance going? Is it more interesting to build, build products? Is that the idea? Or do you really wanna stay in the world of consulting?

Sidney: 37:35

No, I mean we'll keep our consulting business. We team, we'll keep our engineering office. Consulting business because it's the core I would say backbone of our company, which helps us understand the tendencies that, that each sector faces. This so it's, it's known in, in France. So I, I had a lunch with a client of ours in the perfume industry.

Abigail: 38:04

Mm.

Sidney: 38:04

And it's interesting for us to gather the types of topics challenges, pain points that have, so we'll definitely keep the engineering and consulting business.

Abigail: 38:14

how you're learning.

Sidney: 38:15

Yeah. That's how we learn. But it is for us, interesting to create and develop, even if it's more cash intensive, our own technologies over time, because we have, we, we, we don't. I, I mean, at at least we are a little bit more autonomous, which means that we don't have to justify to a client his own boss. And the boss of the boss that needs to validate a budget. The, you know, the soundproof technology that we want to create, you know we think that it's all the questions of being able to try to dare and not to be too hesitating about a a an innovation or a technology. And so most of the time in the consulting business your own ability to innovate and to create new technology really depends. The willingness and risk taking strategy of your own client. And so in order to be more free, in order to have the ability to be audacious, to be you know, to to, to have great ideas and to be a little bit more risky in our approach, we, we just need to create our own technologies. So barge can and already does, invest a little bit of money. Some of these technologies that we then will resell in terms of we will resell patents or licensing rights to patents or even create some of our own products. So we have already have projects ongoing on that. But if we, for, for some of these technologies, there are so much ambitious that we will need to to, to raise funds for that, to raise money for that.

Abigail: 40:00

yep. Okay. Well, good to know. So do you have advice for other entrepreneurs that are, that are environmentally thoughtful, looking at nature kind of businesses.

Sidney: 40:13

Yes, I, I think that what creates a, a successful business is being able to keep things pragmatic in the nature business, in the environmental business. Most of the entrepreneurs, especially young ones that I, sea or meat have huge ideas. They are really ideologically driven, which is perfectly understandable and which is fine because you need I ideology and you need passion and you need dreams in order to be an entrepreneur and to be able to change things because you will have. Front wind and not a tailwind, You will, you won't have always tailwind. You will have wind in that come in your face and that creates obstacles. So. It is good to have ideology, but keep in mind, and that would be my advice, always keep in mind to have to be cool headed enough and pragmatic enough to understand that what makes a successful business is at the end. Is there a return on investment for your client? And the re return on investment could be monetary, of course, it could be marketing, it could be. Regulations. You can have different types of return on investment, but if the return on investment is not there, you won't convince anybody. So I would say, I would say my advice and I lived through that, is staying pragmatic. Even if you're trying to sell sustainable technologies, sustainable concepts, it will. Function only if there is a solid business model, a solid product, and a solid you know, money strategy behind that for you and for your clients, and for your partners and for your investors.

Abigail: 42:11

Hmm. Amen to that.

Sidney: 42:13

Yeah.

Abigail: 42:15

All right. Well, I ask everybody this one parting question. Are you optimistic, I mean, we talked to all these entrepreneurs that are doing things that have positive impacts on the, on the planet. Are you, feeling optimistic about the planet and where we're headed with today?

Sidney: 42:34

I am optimistic in a sense that I. Over time, things will get in order and will be in urgent situation enough to find solution and to implement these solutions. I'm optimistic enough for that. So I'm optimistic in a, that human, I don't think that humanity will destroy itself and that one day are the o are the other. We will be in, in dire situation enough to create technologies and to be able to react. And most of the time that's how the human species is has worked. We are bad at anticipating, actually. I think we are more I think fitted to react, which is kind of a biological way of things. It's you only react to something that is palpable, near understandable. That can be felt. It's difficult to anticipate. On that part, I meant I'm enthusiastic and optimistic enough to think that we will find solution at the end and we will overcome all the challenges that are around sustainable around climates around pollution, et cetera, et cetera. Where I'm a bit more pessimistic is that I don't think it will happen without huge losses.

Abigail: 43:57

Hmm.

Sidney: 43:58

And I think that we will see dire times, difficult times where they will be losses of life, losses of continuous losses of bio biodiversity wars and conflict. And also yeah, maybe famine. And yeah, I, I think there will be di difficult situations and I. I think it's not being pessimistic. I think it's more being realistic. If you look at the studies, if you look at the trajectories, if you look at any types of you know, experts experts papers they all describe the same. Hard times to come. So it's, it's it's not being pessimistic to think that this will happen. It's just being realistic, being optimistic is saying, okay, even this, if this happens, even the, the, all the hardships will create solutions. That's the way I see the future.