Can the Ocean Help Fix our Fashion Problem? Runa Ray, Fashion Environmentalist

The fashion industry is at odds with the survival of our planet. 

Ten percent of total global carbon emissions derive from the fashion industry, as much as the whole European Union. The industry is polluting our rivers, streams, and oceans. Meanwhile some 80% of our discarded textiles are either incinerated or wind up in trash heaps each year, usually in places like Ghana which are fast becoming dumps for the North. 

But clothes bring us protection, safety, and, well, joy. We can’t live without them and we don’t want to. So what can we do about it? 

Our guest this week is Runa Ray, a Fashion Environmentalist determined to make the fashion industry more sustainable. Runa is a Paris-trained designer who cut her teeth at Dior and John Galliano. She eventually broke off on her own to forge a new path. Today Runa is a well known in the fashion industry. She uses seaweed to create more sustainable fashion designs through her own brand and works with groups like the United Nations to promote sustainable fashion practices. Runa is in high demand and we are very lucky to have her.

Just a reminder, you can listen to Happy Planet pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts, or by following one of these links:  Apple , Spotify, Google, or our website.

And a special thanks to Maine Technology Institute and Spark No. 9 for sponsoring our podcast.

Transcript

Abigail:

Welcome to the podcast today where we celebrate Innovation for a Happy Planet. I am your host Abigail Carroll. 

The apparel industry is responsible for 10% of total global carbon emissions, as much as the whole European Union. It’s polluting our rivers, streams and oceans. Meanwhile some vast amounts of textiles wind up in dumps each year, often in places like Ghana, which they are bearing the burden of the excesses of the North.

But clothes, they bring us protection, safety, and joy. We can’t live without them. So what can we do about it? Runa Ray is here to tell us all about this. She is a fashion designer and environmentalist. She uses art as activism to advocate for policy change. She has helped revive ancient indigenous techniques of creating garments - some that involve seaweed and which reduce our fashion’s impact on our planet. Runa has been a featured speaker for the UN and is the author of 'Fashion for Social and Environmental Justice'

It is a tremendous honor to have her here today.

Welcome to the podcast today, Runa. 

Runa: 

Thank you so much, Abigail. I'm absolutely excited to be a part of this podcast.

Abigail:

Well, it's a delight and I'm very interested to talk to you because I grew up loving fashion. I'm a bit of a seamstress, and I am also a former aqua-culturist, and you seem to be at the cross section of the ocean economy and the fashion economy, and I can't wait to dig into that a little bit later. You describe yourself as a fashion environmentalist, so can you tell me what that means?

Runa: 

A fashion environmentalist is somebody who keeps the environment in the center of her designs. So basically when one designs garments, you gotta make sure that you are putting the ecosystem or you're putting the environment in the center of everything that you work around, which means that when you are designing a collection, you work towards the carbon footprint abatement, you try to find solutions that are better for humanity, that are better for climate uh, action. And at the same time, you are not compromising on the design ethos.

Abigail:

The fashion industry is a big problem for the environment. Could you give a description of some of the problems there are today and just how polluting the fashion industry is?

Runa: 

I mean, it's a great question and it would probably take us the entire day and night to discuss this, but to put it in a nutshell, I mean, the fashion industry has gotten to be very polluting because of the speed of making clothes. 

Abigail:

Fast fashion.

Runa: 

Exactly. And the reason why fast fashion gets to be that difficult is because of the petroleum industry. And when you have by-products of the petroleum industry, it translates itself into being synthetics. And synthetics of course, we know our plastics and plastics is definitely bad for the environment. But that is one aspect. The other aspects of the fashion industry lies within the industry itself. So when we are talking about the fashion industry, you have a lot of people who make up the business. So you have designers who make garments or make the prototypes, the prototypes are approved, then it is sent to the higher ups who decide if it's market worthy. If it's not market worthy, it is scrapped. And then you make an entire line which could go into the market. All this entire process involves a lot of prototyping, involves a lot of, uh, wastage when it comes to printing, when it comes to dyes, and even fabrication of the material where one has to analyze to dye a five inch by five inch fabric, it takes the same amount of energy and, uh, manpower and chemicals versus dying say, you know, 20 yards of the same fabric, but in the fashion industry, we gotta get the right pantone shade.

You gotta get the right print, otherwise it's scrapped. So all this amounts to a lot of fashion's waste. So right now we are battling with the waste that is generated within the fashion industry and also post-consumer waste. So I think these are one of the largest challenges which we're facing right now.

Abigail:

Is part of the solution made to order? Is that how you get around sort of the prototyping and the waste on that side? Or is there a different solution?

Runa: 

I'm always, for made to order, because it is like a true two-pronged approach. It is something which generates economy at the same time, you are being mindful of your wastefulness. I've also noticed something with made to order is that when you have fabric that you give out, you would have bits left and you always wonder, okay, what can I make out of this now? So you're always reusing that fabric and you're gonna make sure that it is something that you could make, that you could probably gift or make for yourself or you have another piece.

But I think within the fashion industry itself, there has to be a lot of changes that need to be made when it comes to prototyping. And that's when you have, you know, the software that's being developed now where people can actually have the digital form before it actually hits the market. And that eliminates a lot of making of the physical pieces, which could probably end up in the landfill. And at the end of the day, one has to also realize when we are making prototypes, we're using a lot of muslin and that's cotton. Because you don't want to waste the real good fabric, right? So people are like, let's do it in cotton. But all of that ends up in the landfill. And cotton of course, we know is one of the most challenging crops right now when it comes to production and in certain countries the water consumption that goes into it. 

Abigail:

Right. The problem with cotton today is that we have a fresh water problem on the planet. And, cotton is just a huge, growing and manufacturing of cotton uses a lot of water resources. Is that correct?

Runa: 

It is correct, but I would also beg to differ from it because it depends on where you're getting your cotton from. Now, if you're getting cotton, say from India, for example, most of it is grown in greenfield areas, so they completely depend on the monsoons. But if you're looking at cotton, for example, from Uzbekistan, which used up all the water from the Aral sea, that was completely because of political reasons. And it was meant to grow in an area where you're not supposed to grow cotton. So again, it's all politicized, it's manmade, but naturally where cotton grows is probably in rain fed areas because they depend on the monsoons. And that is the best way to work with the cotton farmers where you are helping them cut out the middleman work with getting the cotton fiber and actually creating your own fabric.

The reason I say creating your own fabric is because that is one way you could probably combat the climate change that is caused with manmade fabrics, because manmade fabrics do not last. Now there is a very interesting thing that I noticed. 'm sure you noticed this too, when you go to museums and you would always wonder, how did this tapestry, which is 400 years old, last, and you know, we are really struggling with fabrics nowadays, which keep breaking down. That's because of the way it was woven. It is the same fiber, the same yarn, but the way it was woven because it was handmade. That's what increases the lifespan of the fabric and the garment. So going back to made to order, we also need to see how we can make our own fabrics.

Abigail:

Wow. You've really surprised me with the prototyping. I actually had no idea that prototyping was such a problem in the industry. And, you know, the related subject of cotton is I think it points to a key struggle because I understand that we wanna stay away from synthetics  but then it seems like the noble fabrics too, like the cottons and the wools have their own problems [mm-hmm.] <affirmative>, and I hate to think of a world without fashion and that beauty and that joy that it creates for everybody. Are we gonna get to a point where some of these noble fabrics are produced in a better way or they're woven in a better way? Is that happening today?

Runa: 

I think it's definitely happening. If you look at all these, like you call them the noble fabrics, I completely agree with you. The way cotton right now is produced, the major problem doesn't arise from the crop itself or the consumption of water, or even the seed utilizing the water. It's mostly in the processing of the yarn

Abigail:

Yeah.

Runa: 

And before you make that into cloth, right? And then that goes into dying of the fabric. So those are the major pollutants. Like I was speaking to one of the scientists and he was like, if all of us wore, you know, unbleached cotton, we wouldn't have a problem.

Abigail:

Right.

Runa: 

If you look at it, it's because of the fashion trends based on color, the dying industry aids the pollution. I mean, there's certain places, even in China where I've read these reports, I haven't seen it, but I have seen it in India where you have lakes that are so polluted that you would probably look at the color of the lake and know what dye is being made in the factory or what the next season color is gonna be.

Abigail:

<laugh>. Oh god.

Runa: 

Yeah. If you look at fast fashion and if you look at how polluting it could be, dyes are definitely one of the largest polluters because of the toxins and carcinogens that exist in them. And the people who work with it are not paid too much. And there's a lot of water wastage that goes into even sampling of these pieces.

Abigail:

Well, the fast fashion industry just seemed to come on so quickly too. I mean, they're on these six week cycles and keeping people in stores and, I've been in those stores and all the clothes are on the floor and people don't treat them with the same attitude that you would actually if the clothes were more expensive. I feel like it's actually created a whole different culture about consumption and the worthiness of these garments, which actually people have to spend a lot of time making, even if they're fast fashion. 

Runa: 

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And if you look at what is also happening in the fashion industry, or let's call it even the garment industry, because fashion gets to be a small niche, right? We are talking about trend based and we are talking about couture. It's a different ball game. But if you look at the garment industry, the garment industry is huge and can be extremely polluting because it caters to the mass public. And here is where you have the large brands who need to be accountable because they are the ones who hold the largest market share when it comes to clothing the world. That's what I keep saying. I mean, the most common garments that you would get now, which you would see are like denim, hoodies, T-shirts. So if there are sustainable ways to actually produce these pieces, then you're definitely making a huge shift in the entire business. 

Abigail:

Cause you don't want environmental fashion to be just for the elite. I mean, this is the thing. [Yeah.] You know, every, it's the rich people that I have Teslas. It's easy for, you know, a wealthy person to go to Louis Vuitton and have a beautiful handmade thing without the same environmental disruption. So I think the issue really is how can we democratize sustainable fashion? And it seems like that really is a challenge because it's expensive to make sustainable fashion, isn't it?

Runa: 

It depends on what you're using to make sustainable fashion. Yes, I do agree. The new age fabrics, which are using like fruit leather and mushroom and, for example, even seaweed, because these are new technologies, so these would be slightly more expensive. But as a designer, you would look at your business and you would find out which has the largest carbon footprint and how you could abate it. And that's what I did with like, the seaweed printing, right? Because most of my garments were printed using seaweed because it was a completely printed collection. And that helped me negate almost 80% of the carbon footprint because the fabrics were, uh, fabrics that could have ended up in the landfill, which I repurposed. 

Abigail:

We’re going to take a short break but when we get back Runa is going to tell us about her own forays into designing with seaweed.

BREAK

Abigail:

Welcome back to Happy Planet. Let’s continue our discussion with Runa.

Let's back up a little bit. You are a proper fashion designer. You've done garments that have appeared at the Met Gala, at the Grammys, you're the real deal and you have integrated seaweed into your fashion process and your design. So tell me about that.

Runa: 

So I love the concept of using seaweed because for me, seaweed as you call it, the kelp forest is one of the most sustainable forests in the world right now. And one of the biggest carbon sinks. And I have worked with the Lloyd's Register Foundation on this. I have worked with the Prince Albert Foundation where we've been trying to find such sustainable solutions for fashion. So using seaweed, I used an ancient indigenous technique of printing. This is something that existed in the 12th century Japan. [Oh interesting] It's called the art of floating inks. So you had water that was contained in a trough. The inks were extracted through chlorophyl, or it could be a mix with very little bit of acrylic, but it floated on the surface of the water because we used seaweed as a coagulant. So what happened is that we used, probably, when I say we, it was me and my helper and we used six gallons of water and we managed to actually print 250 meters of fabric. And that was fantastic. [Wow.] Fantastic. And the beauty of it was they were all organic, they were all unique, and at the same time it was sustainable, but absolutely fascinating pieces that came out of it. 

Abigail:

I saw that they're beautiful, just beautiful markings on the fabric. So you used untreated or undyed cloth

Runa: 

Mm-hmm.

Abigail:

And that was a huge environmental savings of water and time. So it also reduced the cost.

Runa: 

And we made our own prints. So we own our prints, we come down that carbon footprint when we talk about logistics and shipping and the other things that come with the ready made fabric. So we owned the process and it was ready to go.

Abigail:

And each one was unique.

Runa: 

Absolutely. Now, this is something that I did, right, in the studio, but it is also something that we taught a lot of coastal women to do because they are the ones, if you look at coastal communities, the women go diving for indigenous seaweed that is relevant to their country. For example, this was from South India. So the men folk, go into the oceans and they go fishing for like weeks. And the women go diving for the seaweed and then they use it and they process it and make them make it into carrageenan or, you know, agar agar. And then they have the relative free time. But if you can work with these women in the fashion industry and teach them to do what we did using the seaweed that they have harvested, you're helping the economy. So what I would like to see is in the design aspect of things, if designers could go down to the base and start working with local communities, depending on which country you're in, each country has its own source. And it has its own acre of diamonds, you could actually work yourself into then you are not just impacting your work, but you're also impacting a community on a whole.

Abigail:

It's hard to imagine that any industry can become, you know, environmentally sustainable without also being humanly sustainable.

Runa: 

Absolutely. 

Abigail:

You've also done some dresses actually with seaweed, like proper seaweed. [Yes.] And just tell me about those, cause they were the renderings were beautiful. I haven't seen them live, but I did see some absolutely stunning pictures.

Runa: 

Yes. So this was a piece of activism that I did for the Lloyd's Register Foundation, they have a program called the safe seaweed coalition. And it's with the United Nations development program. And I created these garments actually using seaweed that I picked off the coast of California and sculpted them into being dresses to show that this is new age fabric and we need to kind of rethink. Because right now we are all focused on certain fabrics that we've all grown up with, but why not shift your mentality? And that's when I also worked with cyanobacteria, which is, you know, one of the first, uh, oxygen producers in the world to, against sculpt dresses, to show that cyanobacteria can actually be made into fiber. And the beauty of cyanobacteria is that it's fire resistant. So if we could infuse it with our existing cellulosic forms of filament, we could actually come up with something very, very unique and sustainable.

Abigail:

Very interesting. So there are fabrics now that have seaweed in them. They're not entirely seaweed, like SeaCell out of Germany. Are they using cyanobacteria?

Runa: 

No, they're not. They're using the [inaudible] seaweed, which is mostly from Iceland. And if you look at it, it's cellulose where it is spun into say probably virgin cotton or it could be another wood pulp and then made into fabric. Right now the demands are that the new age fabric requires to have at least 30% of, for example, seaweed mixed with 70% say cotton cellulose.

Abigail:

Yeah.

Runa: 

Rather than a hundred percent. Or even recycled cotton. 

Abigail:

Let's talk about recycling for a moment. Like how do you recycle fabric? I mean, that just seems like a very abstract idea, but we've got so many clothes going into landfills that if we can, we should be doing that, I think, but that probably uses a lot of water.

Runa: 

Recycling of fabric, one should understand that you can only recycle natural fabrics. Like cotton and the way it's recycled is almost similar to the paper making industry. So you have the fabric and, the best way to recycle, I believe, is to collect the post garment under the table cutting waste, which amounts to 15% in any fashion industry or garment industry. So when you have these, uh, cotton fabrics or the cotton knits that are collected, you put them in this big beater. Right. And it's kind of beaten into pulp. Once it's beaten into pulp, then you can either use it to extract yarn or you could make it into paper. It's almost similar to that. And when you talk about water, yes, there is a lot of water which is being used, but then if you have water recycling units that are set up or an incentive set up by the government, then we are definitely going a long way with it.

Abigail:

Yeah. What is it gonna take to get a seismic shift in this industry?

Runa: 

I think this this has to trickle down from the governments because what I'm doing right now, I'm working with a lot of communities, a lot of border crafts, because these people are losing their work because of the conflicts that are happening across nations, there's a big human migration that's taking place, a lot of refugee crisis. So, to answer your question, I don't think it just relates just to fashion, but it kind of brings everything together from food to water, which also directly impacts fashion. Because if you look at the war that's happening in Ukraine, it's impacting the pesticides that we use for our cotton, or the cotton growing. And that directly impacts what we are gonna be consuming. And the scary part is, we keep talking about moving away from fossil fuels and synthetics, but if we have a war of that sort happening, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna stick to what is readily available to us? Or are we gonna find sustainable solutions?

Abigail:

I think it's like everything, you really can't talk about anything in a silo. [Yeah.] Right? And, and even if you're using seaweed, you're making a choice not to use that for food or not to use that for biofuel or another application. And it's hard to always know what are the best applications for these different elements. A lot of younger people are really giving new life and breathing new life into secondhand stores. And, upcycling, is that a trend that you think is here to stay? How do you view that in the landscape?

Runa: 

I think it's a good thing because we need to think of clothes swapping. We do need upcycling, we do need secondhand clothes. But I also think it's very important for young people to realize that, I mean, as we progress, we need to have garments that you could probably wear it 10 years from now. Now, I'm not saying that there's gonna be a big shift in the body, but I'm talking about how classic are your clothes. You can still wear a black sweater. Right. I mean, I have clothes that my mother used to get so fed up looking at, she would be like, just put it away. I don't wanna see it anymore. <laugh>. But the beauty was that it lasted that long. And I kept using it because it was evergreen. So that is something which we need to really look at, because every time we have trends that come out, is this trend something that makes me look good? Or is it gonna last long? Or am I gonna use it for just this period? 

Abigail:

I think that's really right. You know, if you look at the shapes that people wear the shapes aren't changing, the fundamental shapes. So it's really a question of, uh, how many bells and whistles do you need to feel happy in your clothes? And will those bells and whistles really survive the test of time? I'm like you, I have stuff that I've been wearing for 10 or 15 years, but I have, I will put money in them. I'll put money in the piece knowing that I will amortize it to death.

Runa: 

Exactly. Another thing which I would like to add to this is when you're talking about, buying garments especially with secondhand and, or pieces that you're buying off the rack, one has to ensure that yes, it could probably go from you into a secondhand store, but if it is not accepted by the secondhand store, then it's gonna go to, one of the countries in South Asia where they're gonna do the sorting. So when the sorting happens, you've gotta make sure that the jacket that you are wearing is a hundred percent cotton, or the thread that's being used is a hundred percent cotton. It doesn't have too much of applications around it, which would make it difficult to disassemble because I have seen seams that have been rejected because the thread was polycotton, and that cannot be recycled.

Abigail:

Wow. I have to be more careful by sewing. I am not always paying attention to the fabric in my threads. Yeah.

Runa: 

So that is something which we really need to look into. Of course, we know the buttons.

Abigail:

Right, plastic.

Runa: 

Yeah. And we can't have too much of print. Because  you could have a chest print for a T-shirt and that could be cut off, and that could be sold separately once your t-shirt is done with, and if your t-shirt is cotton, that could be used. But then if your seams are like, stitched with a different thread, then it's gonna be a problem.

Abigail:

Wow. I wouldn't have thought it was that specific. So what are the best fabrics to look for today? 

Runa: 

What I struggle with is the transparency in the fashion industry. Now, if you ask me, I would say cotton is still good, but again, depending on where you're getting your cotton from, right. But I don't have the transparency to say that the cotton is coming from India. I don't even know whether India has actually imported all its cotton right now. This is a very, very difficult question because I like to kind of delve in really deep to find out what I'm dealing with before giving an answer. [Yeah.] But if we do have natural fabrics that we can take care of, I mean, we are not going in the wrong direction. We have a lot of wooden sweaters, you know, which last forever, learn how to mend it and keep it if you need synthetics -

Runa: 

Yes, we all do. Because sometimes you need to go biking, you need to go hiking, you need it, but make sure it's of a decent quality. And that could probably last you for a long time. So I think it's more about taking care about what you have and that would expand the lifespan of it rather than trying to find innovative materials, because then you'd be like, oh, this is sustainable so I don't have to worry about it. And then that causes another problem.

Abigail:

And is traceability coming to this market? I work in Europe a little bit and I hear a lot about traceability in Europe with respect to fashion. I haven't heard as much about it in the States. When you consider that synthetic threads might make a garment less recyclable then traceability seems to be a really paramount issue.

Runa: 

I do agree with you that the European Union is definitely taking a big stance when it comes to sustainability in fashion. They're also trying to pioneer a lot of, uh, initiatives when it comes to recycling of fabric. The US is also working towards sustainability and traceability more on the humanity aspect of things because of where they manufacture the garments. Traceability is a huge topic, which we could again, discuss forever, because depending on where you're manufacturing your garments, you need to have control over it. So I believe in onshoring, so you are responsible for everything, or at least a large chunk of it. Like, if you could manufacture or like you make your own clothes, then you're responsible for it, or if you are responsible for your prints or whatever. So I think onshoring could be the long-term solution, taking into consideration what's happening in the world right now.

Abigail:

Yeah. I think we're gonna see a lot more of that in a number of sectors. 

Runa: 

Yeah.

Abigail:

We're learning all these lessons the hard way right now. It's amazing.  

Runa: 

And we also need to understand that there are a lot of challenges that are being faced because you have a lot of GMO seeds. So you have that the genetically modified versus indigenous. So that's always a struggle between the farmers. What do they use? They want to use the GMO because it's faster yielding, but it's not very good for the soil. But at the same time, the indigenous variety kind of suffers. But there's a market for both. And this is where I also speak about cross industrial collaborations, and where, like, say in the US and if we need to, we were talking about making our own fabrics, right. Now if we get the yarn and we work with a weaver's guild within the US we could determine the kind of fabric that we are making, the kind of weave that we want, the kind of what percentage of yarn that we would like to use mixed with another yarn. It could be cotton and hemp, or it could be a hundred percent hemp. We own it. And it's not impossible. It's not impossible at all. It's just that we need to find innovative ways to collaborate with each other. 

Abigail:

We're talking about going, artisanal, but at the same point, tech's playing a big role in this transformation. [Mm-hmm] Can you speak to some of the technologies that you think are interesting and that will have a big impact?

Runa: 

I think tech is playing a huge role right now with being hybrid. Like we keep seeing the metaverse Yeah. And wearing garments that they could wear on social media and then not have to wear it again. Which I think is good because as the technology advances is gonna be more realistic and people are kind of adhering to it, especially like the Gen Z who's very much into, you know, the gaming and the metaverse. So that's helpful. And on the other side, the digital garments also help the fashion industry because it helps you visualize better. And when you cannot visualize, you cannot make your choices. And then it goes into making of that prototype, rather than having something which you've drawn and rendered and not sure as to how it would fall because the technology is pretty advanced. It would know that, okay, this is the fall of the fabric and this is exactly how it's gonna look on the person. 

Abigail:

Cuz you can do fit too, right? Aren't these AI systems really getting fit down? Right? [Yeah.]

Runa: 

Like Lectra had it for like over 20 years. Lectra would have you go and stand in their pods and, you know, scan your body and let you know what, and make the exact pattern for you. his technology has been around for like decades. [Yeah.] It's just that it's coming to fruition now.

Abigail:

I actually had a little made to measure a company when I lived in France like 20 years ago, but the clients are more patient today. I think post covid we're so used to internet shopping [mm-hmm. <affirmative>], like we're used to waiting in a way that people didn't wait before. And I think that can help slow down fashion in general. 

Runa: 

I agree. And I think it'll be really cool if we could have something like this even in the big stores where people can come and look at, and then you have a system where you punch it in and say, I'm gonna pre-order this for myself. So goes directly to the brand and the brand has the data and knows how much to manufacture rather than just past data analysis.

Abigail:

Yeah. I think we'll see the storefronts having a really different role than they used to be, but one that maybe is still social and creative. 

Abigail:

So how did you get involved in this? Tell me a little bit more about you. 

Runa: 

I got involved in this, I don't know, probably 15, 18 years ago when I started making jackets out of fabrics that could have ended up in the landfill. One must remember at that point, when you had to create a collection, everyone wanted sizes such as a small, medium, large and extra large, and nobody would take it from you if you had one size missing. I was completely breaking the norm because I would have 20 yards of one color and then you have 10 yards of another color. And I would be like, I have all smalls in this color. If you wanna take it, you can. But as time progressed, I was lucky with the online boom. So you could put out these jackets, for example, and people bought them because they had more accessibility.

Runa: 

I didn't have to depend on the retail stores wanting to have, you know, like the certain size sets and the certain numbers that went with it, or the minimums so I could work with my own minimums, because that's, I think, a big challenge that is being faced by most companies that wanna be sustainable because the factories have minimums that you need to get it to. That's how I got into it. And the reason I got into it was because I worked with Dior, in Paris, I worked with Levi's in India. I was leading this design company called [inaudible] Garments, and I saw the amount of fashion waste and a lot of the prototypes that were being wasted and fabrics that, didn't go for this season, which were, would've probably been bought in Italy, would be sitting down in the go down, hoping to be picked up by somebody and used, but then they would sit there for years.

So that's when I said, I need to address this. And I brought it to the New York Fashion Week in 2016 and I spoke about climate change and environmentalism through fashion. And I still remember I was interviewed by some of the people who asked me, do you think sustainability is gonna be big? And I said, you just wait and watch [laugh] you know, went through the roof. Yeah. So it's been an interesting journey and now I wanna connect the human side to it and wanna get people to understand how communities are being affected by conflict zones and who are artisans, because we keep talking about reviving artisanal fashion, but we cannot do that if we don't understand what they actually go through.

Abigail:

For sure. No one's thinking about fashion artisans when we're thinking about the Ukraine and Russia.

What a huge honor to have Runa on the show. We learned at once how big the task of fixing fashion is, but also how we can all make a difference by making better choices about the clothes we buy. I am particularly excited about getting plastic out of our clothes and embracing some of these Next Gen bio-derived fabrics. We’re going to hear more about these in future episodes.

Thank you for listening. Please follow Happy Planet wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review - it really helps new listeners discover the show. Happy Planet was reported and hosted by me. I am also the Executive Producer. The talented Dylan Heuer is our producer and editor. Composer George Brandl Egloff created our theme music. Learn more about my work and get in touch by visiting happyplanetpodcast.com.